Saturday, April 01, 2017

 

Oral History of Robinsons Coming From Wales

                                                                         
Frank Hugh Robinson b: Wenona, Marshall, Illinois,  said his family came from Wales. 
Nadene Goldfoot
Dedicated to Mother
Mildred Elizabeth Robinson          
My grandfather, Frank Hugh Robinson, spoke of his ancestors as having come from Wales.  I thought he must have been mixed up since I haven't found any Pilgrim coming from Wales; information always says England.
                                                                         
Being my maternal cousin whose father was my mother's brother, a Robinson, has had the Y haplogroup test and is R-L21 or R1b1a2a1a1b4, I checked on this:
DYS 393=12; 390=21; 19/394=14; 391=11; 385a=11; 385b=14; 426=12; 388=12; 439=12; 389-1=13; 392=13; 389-2=29 are the 1st alleles tested.

"Y-DNA haplogroups carried by members of "The Wales Cymru DNA Project" include E1b1a1 (E-L117), E1b1a1a1b1a (E-V13), E1b1a1b2a1a (E-M34), G1a1a1, G2a1, I1 (I-M253), I1d1a1a, I2c2a (I-M223, I-P37, etc.), J1, J2, R1a1a (R-M512, R-M198, R-M173, R-Z280), R1b1a (R-M269, R-M173, R-L21), and R1b1a1a1a1a (R-P312), among others. Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups carried by members include H, H3c2b, H1au1a, H10e, H6a1b2, H7b3, I, J, K1b2a2, K2a, T2, U3, U5, and others.

So it is possible that our distant ancestors did come from Wales.  How did my grandfather know this?
He knew that his father was Abiathar Smith Robinson but we have no records of who his father was.
All we know is that there was a John Robinson on the 1850 census of Royalton, Windsor, Vermont who was a farm hand and boarder with Julia Ann Tuller's family.  Julia Ann later married Abiathar Smith Robinson in Tunbridge, Orange, Vermont which is next door to Royalton.  Otherwise, there is no record anywhere for Abiathar b: December 1829 before 1852 when I found them marrying there.
Finding a "John Robinson" is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
                                                                         

There have been major studies of the Welch.  "Michael E. Weale, Deborah A. Weiss, Rolf F. Jager, Neil Bradman, and Mark G. Thomas. "Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration." Molecular Biology and Evolution 19:7 (2002): pages 1008-1021. They studied English, Welsh, Norwegian, and Frisian men and genetically compared them to each other. Samples included males from 2 towns in North Wales (Abergele and Llangefni) and 5 towns in England as far east as North Walsham in East Anglia. The sampled men from Central English towns genetically resembled each other closely, in contrast to the North Welsh men who "differed significantly both from each other and from the Central English towns." They found common Germanic roots of the English and Frisian males in the study, confirming that the Anglo-Saxons (but not the Welsh) are largely descended from people not indigenous to the British Isles. Excerpts from the article:
"Our results indicate the presence of a strong genetic barrier between Central England and North Wales and the virtual absence of a barrier between Central England and Friesland. [...] The best explanation for our findings is that the Anglo-Saxon cultural transition in Central England coincided with a mass immigration from the continent. Such an event would simultaneously explain both the high Central English-Frisian affinity and the low Central English-North Welsh affinity. [...] Anglo-Saxon settlements and culture appeared throughout England but, importantly, did not extend into North Wales, where many of the original Celtic Britons living in England are thought to have fled [...]""
How my Robinson line differs from most R1b1 people is that DYS allele 393 is a 12.  Most have 13.  This may be what puts us in the R-L21 grouping.  

""Welsh people could be most ancient in UK, DNA suggests." BBC News (June 19, 2012). This is another article about Professor Donnelly's team's research. Excerpts from the article:
"[...] DNA samples were analysed at about 500,000 different points. After comparing statistics, a map was compiled which showed Wales and Cornwall stood out. Prof Donnelly said: 'People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales.' While there were traces of migrant groups across the UK, there were fewer in Wales and Cornwall. He said people from south and north Wales genetically have 'fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age. [...]'"  We have more matches with the Irish than English.                                              
 He said it was possible that people came over from Ireland to north Wales because it was the closest point, and the same for people coming to south Wales from the continent, as it was nearer. However he added: 'We don't really have the historical evidence about what those genetic inputs were.' [...] Because of its westerly position and mountainous nature, Anglo-Saxons who moved into central and eastern England after the Romans left did not come that far west, and neither did the Vikings who arrived in around 900AD. [...] The mountains were also the reason why [Welsh] DNA may have remained relatively unchanged, as people would have found it harder to get from north to south Wales or into England compared with people trying to move across the flatter southern English counties, making them more likely to marry locally and conserve more ancient DNA. [...]"
                                                                           
Conwy Castle, Wales
Conwy Castle is a medieval fortification in Conwy, on the north coast of Wales. It was built by Edward I, during his conquest of Wales, between 1283 and 1289. Wikipedia
"- the classic Celtic Y chromosome marker R1b S145 being carried by a whopping 45% of Welsh men, as opposed to just 15% over on the other side of Offa's Dyke. We have always known that Wales is different from England, but now here is a statistic that shows there is no question about it."
But we are R-L21.  Where is that compared to S145?  

FTDNA reports that: "There are over 1,500 branches and over 5,000 SNPs on FTDNA's R1b-L21 haplotree. The larger subclades are marked by CTS4466+, DF13+, DF21+, DF41+, DF49+, DF63+, FGC5494+, L1335+, L513+, S1026+, Z1051+, M222+, Z251+, Z253+, Z255+, Z2542+. "

 Haplogroup.  R-L21 Haplogroup and the growing number of downstream (more recent in chronology) is the haplogroup of the majority of the Scots-Irish.  Historically it represents the 'Western Atlantic Celtic' population, which includes the Insular Celts, both Gaelic and Cumbric.   

"By the mid-1st millennium, with the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Migration Period of Germanic peoples, Celtic culture and Insular Celtic languages had become restricted to Ireland, the western and northern parts of Great Britain (Wales, Scotland, and Cornwall), the Isle of Man, and Brittany. Between the 5th and 8th centuries, the Celtic-speaking communities in these Atlantic regions emerged as a reasonably cohesive cultural entity. They had a common linguistic, religious and artistic heritage that distinguished them from the culture of the surrounding polities.[10] By the 6th century, however, the Continental Celtic languages were no longer in wide use."
                                                                   

In 1970 Mary Therese Winifred Bourke in BallinaCounty Mayo, Ireland in 1944, married Nicholas Robinson, with whom she had a relationship since they were fellow law students and who was then practicing as a solicitor.  She has since become the 7th President of Ireland that was over in 1997.  
                                                                   

Harry Rhys Robinson (born 16 April 1993) is a former rugby union player who played on the wing for Cardiff Blues and the Scarlets and won 3 caps at international level for Wales.
Matthew Fitz David Robinson is a former Wales International Rugby Union player. A centre or wing, Robinson began his rugby career at Newport High School Old Boys before joining Swansea.
Carl Robinson (born 13 October 1976) is a retired Welsh footballer who played as a midfielder; he is currently the head coach for Vancouver Whitecaps FC in Major League Soccer.
Jamie Peter Robinson (born April 7, 1980 in PenarthWales) is a retired Wales international rugby union footballer who played at outside centre. He attended Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Glantaf with younger brother Nick Robinson. He speaks Welsh fluently.[1]

This will please my cousin who is a retired Coach.  


from the New York Passengers List  Notice nothing is mentioned about Wales.

In 06 a Howard Wayne Roberts wrote this:
There were many ways of saying son of Robert. One of them was of course Robertson, gaelic MacRobert and of course Roberts. I don't think there were that many Roberts'in Scotland. Most Roberts are probably Welsh, with some English and Irish. There were also French Huguenot and Channel Island Robert/s' - so be careful. Linguistically it was never 'Welsh given' as some websites wrongly suggest. The name was taken to Wales by the Normans as it was in Scotland. There are a number of possible origins. 
I live in Wales, but my family came from Gloucestershire. Paper records suggest that we came from Ponteland, Northumberland. My DNA confirms we were originally Scottish, and I am very close to other septs of clan Donnachaidh including Robertson, Reid, Duncun and Inches, but there are a number of paternal lines in the clan including those of saxon as well as gaelic origin. I'm related to a chunk of them - not all. In some cases Robinson (Clan Gun) can also be a corruption of Robertson, as a result in my DNA results suggests. 

The Adams family also has this haplogroup and said:  It is important to note that the Adams families represented on this website have an R1b1a2a1a1b4f haplotype which is a branch of the Nordic line as part of the L21 subclade. More specifically our DNA contains the Z255+ and L159.2+/S169.2 mutation The presence of the marker L159 also known as L159.2 because of a parallel mutation that also exists inside haplogroup I2a1 (L159.1) means our Adams are associated with the Kings of Leinster and Diarmait Mac Murchada. It can also be found in the coastal areas of the Irish Sea including the Isle of Man and the Hebrides, as well as Norway, western and southern Scotland, northern and southern England, northeast France, andnorthern Denmark.[57]

Norman Douglas Clark says:
My male side y DNA from markers 12 to 111, comes up almost exclusively from Scottish groups in America and Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4 in Scotland. The Scots came from Ireland so they have those markers. Anglo-Saxons and Jutes which is the dominate group in England immigrated to from Germany, Denmark and Netherlands. They mixed with Celtic, Pict s and Scots, in England and Scotland. The Norman invasion brought, French, Jutes and Anglo-Saxon bloodlines into mix to British Isles. So that is why everyone from that H-group can be from British Isles with markers from Northern Europe. The British, Irish, and Scots are Celtic and Germanic , some French.

Was our grandfather, Frank Hugh Robinson, named for this Welchman?
HUGH ROBINSON ( 1584 - 1655 )
was educated at Winchester 1596-1603 ) and New College , becoming Fellow of the latter in 1605 and ‘ Informator ’ ( headmaster ) of the former, as well as holding several English livings from which Parliament extruded him in 1647 till he took the Covenant and was compensated elsewhere. Either he or a kinsman of the same name also succeeded HumphreyRobinson at Caerhun and Llanbedr in 1613 , to which he added the living of Trefriw (withLlan-rhychwyn and Betws-y-coed ) in 1617 , keeping them all, in spite of complaints of neglect in 1618 , till he was ejected under the Propagation Act in 1650 — just after making himself useful to Owen Wynn of Gwydir (q.v.) by reminding the dying archbishop , JohnWilliams (q.v.) , of a promised legacy to his niece Grace Wynn 's wife." http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ROBI-NSO-1530.html

Resource: http://www.writerlyhaphazardry.net/?p=2039  Irish Ancestor Hunt
 http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/welsh.html
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/background
http://thescotsirish.blogspot.com/2014/10/r-l21-haplogroup-and-scots-irish.html
http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=robinson
http://www.clansandnames.org/forum/read.php?1,103
https://dna-explained.com/2013/03/31/new-y-dna-haplogroup-naming-convention/
http://adamsfamilydna.com/haplogroup-r1b-r1b1a2a1a1b4f-subclade-l21/
http://www.writerlyhaphazardry.net/?p=2039

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