Sunday, October 11, 2009

 

Pursuing Facts on R1b1b2 (R-L21) and DYS 393 Leads to Middle East Origins

Grandfather Abiathar Smith Robinson's ancestors started 5,000-8,000 years ago, maybe before the last ice age.
July 31, 2011 update: Haplogroup upgraded on 67 alleles to be R1b1a2a1a1b4:

Having a DYS of 393 =12 is very rare with Haplogroup R1b1b2. Here is a conversation I have found on Dienekes' Anthopology Blog about it and might prove Jewish origins. It seems that Haplogroup R is older than J, a haplogroup many Jews have.

Aaron said...
According to the book The Early History of the Hebrews, there were pastoralists that extended all the way from Northern Africa and into S. Asia along the coast. These people would have been commonly called Amorites, or potentially many tribes of similarly related peoples. They were documented by the Egyptians with similar phenotypes to the ancient Celts. (tall stature, red haired) Eventually these people were assimilated into other tribes along the Canaan. They may have been Semitic speakers, or possibly not. In any event, I think these men are strong candidates for early R1b we find there today.
Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:51:00 AM

from Maju: All Ashkenazim with R1b1b2 are DYS-393=13. And do fit otherwise well enough with the R1b1b2a1 subhaplotypes. Iranian, Kurdish and Tunisian Jews are DYS-393=12 and fit in the root haplotype, common in Anatolia. One of the Palestinian Jews is also DYS-393=12 and the other markers suggest close affinty with a derived haplotype found specially in Croatia in Alonso'05. Only the other Palestinian Hebrew is an oddball, with DYS-393=13 but the other comparable markers different from any of the West European haplotypes... (except from a rare and porly linked one found in Iceland, from which it differs at DYS=391).

Aaron said...
Not necessarily. All the haplotypes are of the DYS393=12 variety. If you are suggesting some of these priests are converted European Jews I would say the haplotype evidence contradicts this. At least post-diaspora. It would appear that the peopling of the Near East was not from a single source. Take any study which has sampled this region and you will find plenty of R-M269. There are adjacent regions in the Aegean who have similar levels of diversity, namely Greece and Turkey. I don't think anyone can attest to who the "real" Jews were but J1e* is at least a good chunk.
Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:31:00 PM

I took the conversations out of context but was looking for information on DYS393=12 and where that came from.

From Wikipedia I found this: Similarly, within the clade, R1b1b2 (R-M269) by far the most common subclade of R1b in Western Europe, has been said to reach its highest diversity in Iberia and Anatolia. Anatolia (Turkish: is a geographic region of Western Asia, comprising most of the modern Republic of Turkey.
That may be, but I have also found that having DYS 393=12 is rare, and the others have 13. That makes us from a different path.

R1b1b2
R-M269
Long-hand:
R1b1b2 (formerly R1b1c, R1b3)
Defining SNP:
M269
Parent Clade:
R-P297
Subclades:
R-P311
This subclade is defined by the presence of the M269 marker. It is the subclade most closely corresponding to Haplotype 15. From 2003 to 2005 what is now R1b1b2 was designated R1b3. From 2005 to 2008 it was R1b1c.
This subgroup, may have existed before the last Ice Age, but can be seen as much younger. Another estimate for R1b1b2 arising is around 5,000 to 8,000 years ago.


10/13/09 1) Given that DYS393 apparently has an extremely low mutation rate, WHY do the DYS393=12 participants seem to exhibit some characteristics atypical of the general population of west European ancestry? Such as some indication that some of them belong to Blood Group B... which is of ASIAN origin. Such as appearing to be rooted in Ulster and along the Anglo-Scottish Border, rather than eastern Europe or western Asia. Are they in fact not properly classified as R1b?

Resource: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/finally-updated-look-at-y-chromosomes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/dnareivers.htm

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Comments:
I am 393 =12, 388 = 13 and 390 = 23. I am L21+. Before my SNP testing I was told I was Eastern European. My heritage is Scottish back to the 1650s. I think there is a bottleneck, but I canĀ“t explain the L21?. How my scotland is of great interest to me. I am z5hg3.
 
Haplogroup R1b1a2 M269 from my family YDNA. My family Finder shows Lithuwanian cousins, and since we do not know my fathers history I am reaching at these cousins from Lituwania. My grandfather was born in 1858 to a German General?? Unknown. His name was Leonard von Bieker (Bieker) but this was his mothers name. How prevalent is R1b1a2 in Lithuwania? could Generals from there go to Germany? Thanks, Bonny from Edmonton
 
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